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"IT'S A NICELY DESIGNED GAME AS LONG AS YOU DON'T WANT ANY MEANING IN YOUR LIFE."-TIM

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Author Topic: Quicksaving in Underworld Ascendant  (Read 26464 times)

Starker

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Re: Quicksaving in Underworld Ascendant
« Reply #75 on: February 11, 2015, 10:44:59 PM »

The job of a designer is to predict all possible outcomes, otherwise you get bugs and more. Emergent gameplay (the type to be commended) should be a case of interaction of multiple systems resulting in something cool and fitting for the gameworld, not skipping whole segments with bad glitches that break the game.

With immersive sims, however, it is a good thing if players come up with solutions that the designer never even thought of.

Stop fearing and criticizing what is unknown to you.

Why would you assume that I'm afraid of it? I am very familiar with checkpoint based systems. I've played quite a few console games like Silent Hill and what have you.
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When I grew up I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.

CyberP

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Re: Quicksaving in Underworld Ascendant
« Reply #76 on: February 11, 2015, 11:12:59 PM »

With immersive sims, however, it is a good thing if players come up with solutions that the designer never even thought of.

If fitting, otherwise it is classified as a bug/glitch.

Quote
Why would you assume that I'm afraid of it?

An unnecessary statement on my part. I assumed you feared the implementation of it as you are arguing against it and obviously see it as a waste of resources.
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Starker

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Re: Quicksaving in Underworld Ascendant
« Reply #77 on: February 11, 2015, 11:42:27 PM »

I am arguing against this game being designed around a checkpoint system. That doesn't mean that I don't enjoy games with checkpoint systems. Dark Souls is probably my favourite game of the last 10 years and it felt almost like it was custom built for me. That doesn't mean that I want UA to be designed like it.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2015, 11:45:56 PM by Starker »
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When I grew up I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.

CyberP

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Re: Quicksaving in Underworld Ascendant
« Reply #78 on: February 11, 2015, 11:54:43 PM »

Well, whenever you are ready to see that it can be done for this type of game with more significant pros than cons you know where to look. By default it adds more depth and freedom to players, being an optional mode.

I'd have preferred it to co-op by a big long stretch anyway.
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Bracknell

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Re: Quicksaving in Underworld Ascendant
« Reply #79 on: February 12, 2015, 12:03:40 AM »

I'm opposed to the checkpoint mechanism on devices that have storage. Which is nearly everything a game can be played on nowadays. Even my phone has 8 Gb built-in.

Sometimes you have to stop what you're doing right there and then, and the quicksave mechanism allows this.
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CyberP

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Re: Quicksaving in Underworld Ascendant
« Reply #80 on: February 12, 2015, 12:08:06 AM »

I'm opposed to the checkpoint mechanism on devices that have storage. Which is nearly everything a game can be played on nowadays. Even my phone has 8 Gb built-in.

Sometimes you have to stop what you're doing right there and then, and the quicksave mechanism allows this.

Annnd history repeats itself  :-\
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Flatfingers

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Re: Quicksaving in Underworld Ascendant
« Reply #81 on: February 12, 2015, 02:41:02 AM »

I'll just quote myself here:

Bear in mind though that this is one of those questions that can be contentious -- please be respectful to people with different opinions.

Sanity check time: is there general agreement that quicksave, which usually can be done at any time the player wants it, has a higher amount of agency (i.e., letting the player make choices) than developer-determined checkpoint saves or in-world "save stations"?

If so, is the value of quicksave particularly high for a game whose design tries to encourage player agency?

Or should out-of-game mechanics like saving game state not be considered relevant to in-game mechanics like diverting lava flows and talking to NPCs?
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Jammet

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Re: Quicksaving in Underworld Ascendant
« Reply #82 on: February 12, 2015, 05:48:03 AM »

I've said it in length before, but to answer that in short again, if it's okay :).

No save "stations" as in stationary for me. I'd much prefer a dynamic saving mechanism that works anywhere; has "natural limits" defined through a game mechanic (regrowing incredients for a save spell, cooldown, what have you), and does take a moment to execute, so you can't do it in a situation of imminent danger.
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CyberP

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Re: Quicksaving in Underworld Ascendant
« Reply #83 on: February 12, 2015, 07:44:15 AM »

I've said it in length before, but to answer that in short again, if it's okay :).

No save "stations" as in stationary for me. I'd much prefer a dynamic saving mechanism that works anywhere; has "natural limits" defined through a game mechanic (regrowing incredients for a save spell, cooldown, what have you), and does take a moment to execute, so you can't do it in a situation of imminent danger.

Featuring a save system that lets you save anywhere you choose but a limited number of times almost defeats the point of restrictions to begin with: game rules are still open to abuse by saving at specific locations & there's none of that designed structure. All it does is prevent the player overdoing it with the quicksave key, which can be achieved by self-imposed restrictions (saving every 10 as opposed to 5).

I'm done here. I'm losing my patience. 
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Jammet

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Re: Quicksaving in Underworld Ascendant
« Reply #84 on: February 12, 2015, 08:03:15 AM »

My apologies; I aboslutely didn't mean to sound like a broken record or annoy anybody. It's maybe a little frustrating, with this onslaught of opininos and ideas. I guess I've said all that I can, just as well. The only reason I keep talking is because it's actually fun. And I was hoping you enjoy it same as me.

This mechanic that I am talking about, it's completely open for changes that would make it behave differently. And maybe to some degree more to what you think works better. There could be areas where these ingredients would simply just ... get ruined.

Say you cross a bridge above lava. And one of the ingredients happens to be this small funny mushroom that just shrivels to dust when it gets too warm. Say the other one needs to stay dry at all times. You could create places of any size where saving is just plain impossible that way.

It needs a good bit of imagination but a world designed like that would still make sense in the end.

What I didn't like about fixed save points is that they're completely fixed. So that when you load, you know you'll be standing on that exact spot, facing that exact way. It's so ... so technical. It makes me think of coordinates and numbers and .. not "Ah .. I was somewhere around there.". :/ I'm sorry, it's just a weakness and I think it'd feel so arbitrary when I can't save anymore for no visible reason.

But if it's a visible thing, something that makes sense in the game world, I am all for it. Just please no JRPG style .. save stations. Like  a specific statue. Or a floating glowing ball. At least I'd try to come up with something just a bit more imaginative.
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Dablue

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Re: Quicksaving in Underworld Ascendant
« Reply #85 on: February 12, 2015, 08:22:36 AM »

Well I have alot of patience left today so here is my opinion. LEt people save where they want.. what they want. Theyll abuse any clearly designed system anyhow and I .. personally.. hate it when I die.. fall.. or whatever and I have to backtrack because the last save treshhold was 10 miles to the south.
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CyberP

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Re: Quicksaving in Underworld Ascendant
« Reply #86 on: February 12, 2015, 08:28:48 AM »

My apologies; I aboslutely didn't mean to sound like a broken record or annoy anybody.

No, my apologies for being impatient.
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docdoom77

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Re: Quicksaving in Underworld Ascendant
« Reply #87 on: February 12, 2015, 09:09:39 AM »

Well I have alot of patience left today so here is my opinion. LEt people save where they want.. what they want. Theyll abuse any clearly designed system anyhow and I .. personally.. hate it when I die.. fall.. or whatever and I have to backtrack because the last save treshhold was 10 miles to the south.

Agreed.
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Vanyelxp5

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Re: Quicksaving in Underworld Ascendant
« Reply #88 on: February 12, 2015, 10:36:29 AM »

The easiest way to let people play their own way, is to allow unrestricted saving. One system, infinite possibilities.

People have created their own challenge modes for years. From the unarmed/unarmored Save only when quitting UW run, to the use only the first 6 pokemon you capture runs in.... Well, all of the pokemon games. Clearly, people have enough self control for that, so there is absolutely no need to program a completely different mode for people who want an added challenge.

Difficulty selector at character creation? Absolutely! Whether the Underworld standard of 2, or a greater number, being able to make the game harder without adding your own restrictions is never bad. This also works into my personal opinion of letting everyone play their own way.
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Bracknell

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Re: Quicksaving in Underworld Ascendant
« Reply #89 on: February 12, 2015, 02:08:41 PM »


Annnd history repeats itself  :-\

Aannd we have someone who disagrees with my opinion.

I prefer quicksave systems in video games, have done for 20+ years. If that runs contrary to your way of thinking, oh well. You might find this difficult to believe, but my PoV is just as valid/meaningful as yours.
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