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"IT'S A NICELY DESIGNED GAME AS LONG AS YOU DON'T WANT ANY MEANING IN YOUR LIFE."-TIM

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Author Topic: REviews are coming in....sort of....  (Read 2168 times)

MasterLobar

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Re: REviews are coming in....sort of....
« Reply #30 on: November 26, 2018, 08:28:17 AM »

Hard to disagree.
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"In our days of beginning, we must stick together and not allow petty grievances to stand in the way of respect" -- Writ of Lorne

I try to follow Rapoport's rules for successful critical commentary. (Update June 2018: not anymore)

Flatfingers

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Re: REviews are coming in....sort of....
« Reply #31 on: November 26, 2018, 10:31:58 AM »

Seems like an emotional overreaction from the TechRaptor writer.

I don't really blame the writer that much. Many of the criticisms were fair. I share the writer's concern that some design choices of UA, and releasing it before it was entirely polished, may put some developers with deeper pockets off of supporting immersive sim aspects in their games.

But I don't think it helps anything to express those views in the kind of hyperbolic, even moralistic language that's games journalism du jour. I'm somewhat disappointed with UA, too. Like others, I've been a Looking Glass zealot since UU's original release; my appreciation for that kind of game is strong. I also wish intensely that OSE had had the time and money to emphasize dynamics as they did, only in a game that was structured more like the incredible original UU/UU2. But what good comes from being emotionally invested in things I can't control? Why does anyone believe that if they just fling outrage loudly enough for long enough, they can make developers do something?

I'm at the point of thinking that if OSE hadn't announced who some of their veteran members were, and UA hadn't been described as a sequel to UU/UU2, this game still would have caught some flak for its implementation but nothing like the upset commentary it's gotten for not being a proper sequel. The good parts -- and there are good parts -- could have stood out more than the unmet expectations.

But all OSE can do is go from here. Upset reviews are obviously undesirable, but unless someone has a time machine all the team can do is try to clean up UA as much as they can before moving on. (And hope that Warren and the Austin team are making a more conventionally structured game.)

I imagine the conversations with 505 must really be something lately....
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MasterLobar

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Re: REviews are coming in....sort of....
« Reply #32 on: November 26, 2018, 11:17:53 AM »

Why does anyone believe that if they just fling outrage loudly enough for long enough, they can make developers do something?

I don't know if this studio is going to get a second shot at all after UA (I hope so), but if they do, doing the same sh*t again with SS3 would definitely end their careers.

I hope they are listening, and I do believe they will in fact change course.
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"In our days of beginning, we must stick together and not allow petty grievances to stand in the way of respect" -- Writ of Lorne

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Infinitron

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GameOutLoudRob

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MasterLobar

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Re: REviews are coming in....sort of....
« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2018, 08:33:05 AM »

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"In our days of beginning, we must stick together and not allow petty grievances to stand in the way of respect" -- Writ of Lorne

I try to follow Rapoport's rules for successful critical commentary. (Update June 2018: not anymore)

Flug

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Re: REviews are coming in....sort of....
« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2018, 11:33:25 AM »

...but what about the bad points...?  :D

(j/k)

I think it's safe to say by now that the reviews have reached a concensus. In fact they've pretty much dined-out on this.

Btw, Flatfingers....agree with you on the preachy, sermon-on-the-mount stuff (hey, that's my job). It's one thing to be angry and disappointed, it's another to go all cod-psychological. Plus, things line-up more readily with hindsight.

We still don't really know why things took the turns they did (though various dev posts recently hint at serious fractures along the way perhaps)...any more than we really knew what the game was going to be all the way through dev...it was always 'concentrate on the future, not what's happening now.'. That was always a signal thing, and contributed to the uneasiness.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2018, 11:46:14 AM by Flug »
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Nyast

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Re: REviews are coming in....sort of....
« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2018, 11:48:13 AM »

But here's the problem with UA: everybody is now in distrust and will be extremely wary of their other projects, like SS3.

As for me, I can promise one thing: unless SS3 gets stellar reviews ( 8/10 or above ), I'm not gonna buy it. Even if it's barely above average ( 6 or 7 ), then it's a no. My good will and support of the company was exhausted with UA. I'm ready to buy SS3 if it stands on its own merits, but I'm gonna gonna support another mediocre game, no matter what. And I'll wait for reviews before I even touch it - no more blinding trust. That's what you get for rushing UA.

Fool me once..
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Flug

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Re: REviews are coming in....sort of....
« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2018, 12:08:06 PM »

...I think that view will be widespread, if you are one of the endangered species that rate this game highly.

Even if you like UA, you can see the gaping chasm between what was talked about and what was delivered (even allowing for the fact that things always change a lot as reality sets in).

I agree, they have some work to do before trust is re-captured. One thing that *doesn't* re-ignite trust is letting the PR depts take all the flack, even if it's part of the job description. I know some senior devs are tightly-bound by legal/contractual stuff, but they can still signal certain things (and no, to the argumentative catflaps among us, that is *not* a get-out-of-jail free pass being given to the devs...it's just reality). We've had some of that already, but maybe not enough to really register yet.

Besides, it's still early days for fixes (had to laugh when some wags suggested they'd simply buggered off on holiday at the first opportunity...have you ever heard of 70hr crunch weeks...or Thanksgiving...or 'families'...or 'outside'....?)
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Twist

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Re: REviews are coming in....sort of....
« Reply #40 on: November 30, 2018, 12:56:23 PM »

Quote from: DM Schmeyer, IGN
If thereís one positive quality of the melee system, itís that at least things didnít spontaneously combust when whacked with a sword.

Clearly he never found or used the Sword of Sutr.  :D

Quote from: DM Schmeyer, IGN
Magic often doesnít work as advertised: Several times Iíd try to call a box or a board with my Move Wood magic wand and somehow set everything on fire instead.

I think this is one of those design ideas that should have been deep-sixed during the prototyping phase. I get what it aspires to communicate: magic is mystical and unpredictable! Oooh, aaaah!

But the random failures and occasional unexpected effects are perceived by most players as either buggy or frustrating. It's one of those ideas that sounds cool on paper but just doesn't work in practice, much like the whole feat system.
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Sandro

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Re: REviews are coming in....sort of....
« Reply #41 on: November 30, 2018, 01:17:48 PM »

It worked perfectly in Wizardry8.

However, it only worked because as you continued to increase your magic skill, you got better at casting, and less accidents! At a point, you were so skilled your spells always worked. It adds TONS to the gameplay, but then again, almost every aspect of Wiz8 is perfect. :)

I get the feeling that the magic in UA doesnt get better and more accurate the more you use it. Does it function that way through the whole game? Or does it get better the more you use it...
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Flug

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Re: REviews are coming in....sort of....
« Reply #42 on: November 30, 2018, 01:24:14 PM »

Accidental casting is fine...except when your game thinks Summon Underworld means becomes Summon Thief....or Summon Dishonoured instead... ;)
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Nyast

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Re: REviews are coming in....sort of....
« Reply #43 on: November 30, 2018, 01:56:24 PM »

I agree, they have some work to do before trust is re-captured. One thing that *doesn't* re-ignite trust is letting the PR depts take all the flack, even if it's part of the job description.

There was one way, and only one way, to properly address this mess of a release: Admit it was a rush job due to lack of budget/time, promise that you'll get back to work on it asap.. and work hard. Very hard, with lots of communication and presence.

This is what we got instead: "don't worry we'll fix it oh and btw.. we took some well deserved vacation, we'll be back in a week, meanwhile PR guys will do damage control". And "btw, our first patch will be a quick fix, it'll take us months to address all the major issues like saving..".

I simply can't get over the fact that the devs took a vacation the week their game went on Steam. That's just.. that can't happen. You're sending all the wrong signals to the playerbase with that, that you do not care, that you've moved on to other projects and don't give a s*** anymore. I'm not saying this is true. I'm saying it's what people will perceive. Just look at the Steam forums, wondering where you guys are / what you are doing.

This is a major timing mistake. If devs needed vacation, they had to take it a month before or after going on Steam. Not during the week of the Steam launch. You don't have to be a genius at marketing/management to realize that. What the hell were the people in charge thinking ?
« Last Edit: November 30, 2018, 02:00:39 PM by Nyast »
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Flug

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Re: REviews are coming in....sort of....
« Reply #44 on: November 30, 2018, 04:13:04 PM »

They *have* said it was a mess...but maybe just not bowed down and begged for their lives? We can say what we think, withhold money, and burn baby seals in protest... but tell them how they should live?

I don't agree about the 'holiday' - it's very common in pressured software dev to take a break/'holiday'....whether it's a success or howling mess. It doesn't mean they're running off down the street laughing. Thanksgiving is an ideal time ...it can't be moved, and it's a major event known months in advance. Also, even if you're at home, you'll still be checking-in and monitoring.

In short, you can't tell devs how to live their lives, whatever happens.

As for what those in charge were thinking...if we knew that we'd have some insight into the mess that followed... :) and if we'd known way back, we'd have shouted even louder (if that were possible. One persistent nonsense is that this place needs to wake-up. Parts of it maybe, but most of us were sending up flares long before it became a contact sport. Even if this ruins the narrative of some latter-day sages....).

I think what people really object to was the tone of some of the 'vacation' remarks. But you can't win, If people have made up their minds that you're intent on hood-winking them, how much effort are you going to put in to keeping those same people happy?

As for the Steam forums...they're easily rabble-roused (not that this is without reason) and co-opted by one or two voices. Easy to spot - just follow the silhouette of mobs-with-megaphones.

But it was all known here years ago...every bit as much as anywhere else. The difference is that average age is probably a bit older here. We might say things a bit differebtly, it doesn't mean the underlying thoughts are that different.

But maybe this is just one more sympton of a bad game....the fans start squabbling over what they fundamentally agree on...?
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